Questions of Faith and Non-Belief
Well I walked into the proverbial lion's den today.
I've never been shy about expressing my faith and what it means to me. I'm not an Evangelical Christian (despite the denomination I participate in being the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America). Indeed, I've been told by "those people" I'm not really a Christian because I haven't been born-again and I couldn't care less about their opinion. I've found positive faith communities online as well that express how I feel in the writings of John Pavlovitz and The Christian Left.
I have friends who are atheists. I've never felt the need to preach to them or try to convert them. We are all entitled to our beliefs or dis-beliefs. Some of the most gracious, charitable people I know are atheists.
There are always people who are radical in their faith. We see that with Muslims and right-wing Christians. There are also radical atheists. I've experienced that more and more. They are jest as fervent and radical in their dis-belief as the radicals are in their belief. After a comment by someone last night where they thought it would be a good idea to legislate that people couldn't donate their money to churches, I was particularly frustrated and expressed it in the sentiment I also expressed above: that for some atheists, dis-belief is their religion and they are just as radical as those on the religious right.
I have seen posts from atheists where they advocate outlawing religion. That would be advocating a thought police. In the usual discussion about taxing the churches I bring up that it would be tantamount to creating a separate class of non-profits, simply because some people don't like religion. It's their prerogative to not like religion. I'm not bothered by that. There are times I don't much like religion. But it's not their prerogative to tell me what I can think or what I can do with my money. These same people scream bloody murder about attempts to regulate what people who receive food stamps spend them on (and rightly so - let them figure it out), yet they would take the opportunity to build on their own biases and tell people they can't donate where they want or that churches are somehow different than other non-profits.
I would also say that this kind of talk is divisive in the culture wars. It enables right-wing news outlets like Faux News to build the case that "they" are coming for your Bible and your faith. It's never going to happen.
But I digress. I vented my frustration. On my page. I singled out no one. There was some interesting discussion. Then one person joined in who it became very apparent as time went on was exactly the person I was describing. I guess it hit home when he read it and he lashed out. He was not singled out or named in any way, and he wasn't in any way connected to the original post that inspired my venting.
The mis-information started to come out which I corrected. I worked for my church in New York as the Office Manager for a period, as well as doing the books and being the Treasurer. I know how things work with church finances. There's a lie perpetrated by many on the left that Pastors don't pay taxes. That's not true. In my experience, Pastors are usually paid as independent contractors by their church. That means they are responsible for their income taxes - and they do pay them. I received a paycheck directly from the church and I paid taxes on my salary. It's not like when the collection plate is passed the Pastor gets to keep whatever he or she wants from it. Churches have expenses such as heat and insurance like any other building would and that has to be paid for.
But the mis-information was flowing and I corrected it. Apparently some people don't like finding out that they don't know everything. He moved the goalposts time and again away from the original statement, which was just that some atheists are as religious about their dis-belief as others are about their belief. He got into the discussion of non-profits and taxes and I brought up what qualifies one to be a non-profit under IRS laws. The reason churches don't have to "prove" anything to the IRS is that one of the criteria for being tax-exempt is the promotion of religion. That's pretty much a given in a church.
He talked about having "hundreds" of churches in his area and there was only one food bank in his area. Nice anecdotal evidence. I brought up how it was silly for every church to operate a food bank - many collect and bring it to a central church that has the food bank. I know we did that at my church and up here the main food bank is also in a Community Center associated with a particular church.
I didn't say it, but really, unless you are on the council of every one of these churches, he would have no idea what they did or didn't do that benefited the community.
I made the point that I do find the salaries of the Joel Osteens and other mega-Pastors of mega-churches to be reprehensible. I don't believe that's how Christians are supposed to be.
It didn't matter by now. By now, I was evil up there with Fred Phelps and Hitler because I was a Christian. He was telling me what I believe, putting words in my mouth, and other personal attacks. I had really held back. I refrained from pointing out just how much absolute bullshit he was spewing, and there was plenty. Anyone else I would have jettisoned long before the argument went on this long. His excuse was that there had experienced discrimination for so long by Christians that it made this okay.
And you know what, he exactly proved my point.
He's gone from my friends list, and from what I heard he is whining about it. I don't particularly care. I pointed out that he thought he had a license to be a dick and someone who I do care about picked up on that and I think he thought that was just because of the original person being an atheist. It wasn't. It was because the original person degraded the argument into strawman tactics, moving the goalposts, personal insults, and out and out bullshit when his points were refuted. He was really no different than many Trump supporters I've jettisoned over the last 18 months or so for the same thing.
People should be free to believe or not believe whatever they want to. People should not be discriminated against because they believe or don't believe something. Our community institutions should not be targeted because a group of people don't "like" them, be it a drug rehab facility, AIDS charity, food bank, domestic violence shelter, habitat for humanity, or church.
But, thanks for proving my point on your way out the door.
I've never been shy about expressing my faith and what it means to me. I'm not an Evangelical Christian (despite the denomination I participate in being the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America). Indeed, I've been told by "those people" I'm not really a Christian because I haven't been born-again and I couldn't care less about their opinion. I've found positive faith communities online as well that express how I feel in the writings of John Pavlovitz and The Christian Left.
I have friends who are atheists. I've never felt the need to preach to them or try to convert them. We are all entitled to our beliefs or dis-beliefs. Some of the most gracious, charitable people I know are atheists.
There are always people who are radical in their faith. We see that with Muslims and right-wing Christians. There are also radical atheists. I've experienced that more and more. They are jest as fervent and radical in their dis-belief as the radicals are in their belief. After a comment by someone last night where they thought it would be a good idea to legislate that people couldn't donate their money to churches, I was particularly frustrated and expressed it in the sentiment I also expressed above: that for some atheists, dis-belief is their religion and they are just as radical as those on the religious right.
I have seen posts from atheists where they advocate outlawing religion. That would be advocating a thought police. In the usual discussion about taxing the churches I bring up that it would be tantamount to creating a separate class of non-profits, simply because some people don't like religion. It's their prerogative to not like religion. I'm not bothered by that. There are times I don't much like religion. But it's not their prerogative to tell me what I can think or what I can do with my money. These same people scream bloody murder about attempts to regulate what people who receive food stamps spend them on (and rightly so - let them figure it out), yet they would take the opportunity to build on their own biases and tell people they can't donate where they want or that churches are somehow different than other non-profits.
I would also say that this kind of talk is divisive in the culture wars. It enables right-wing news outlets like Faux News to build the case that "they" are coming for your Bible and your faith. It's never going to happen.
But I digress. I vented my frustration. On my page. I singled out no one. There was some interesting discussion. Then one person joined in who it became very apparent as time went on was exactly the person I was describing. I guess it hit home when he read it and he lashed out. He was not singled out or named in any way, and he wasn't in any way connected to the original post that inspired my venting.
The mis-information started to come out which I corrected. I worked for my church in New York as the Office Manager for a period, as well as doing the books and being the Treasurer. I know how things work with church finances. There's a lie perpetrated by many on the left that Pastors don't pay taxes. That's not true. In my experience, Pastors are usually paid as independent contractors by their church. That means they are responsible for their income taxes - and they do pay them. I received a paycheck directly from the church and I paid taxes on my salary. It's not like when the collection plate is passed the Pastor gets to keep whatever he or she wants from it. Churches have expenses such as heat and insurance like any other building would and that has to be paid for.
But the mis-information was flowing and I corrected it. Apparently some people don't like finding out that they don't know everything. He moved the goalposts time and again away from the original statement, which was just that some atheists are as religious about their dis-belief as others are about their belief. He got into the discussion of non-profits and taxes and I brought up what qualifies one to be a non-profit under IRS laws. The reason churches don't have to "prove" anything to the IRS is that one of the criteria for being tax-exempt is the promotion of religion. That's pretty much a given in a church.
He talked about having "hundreds" of churches in his area and there was only one food bank in his area. Nice anecdotal evidence. I brought up how it was silly for every church to operate a food bank - many collect and bring it to a central church that has the food bank. I know we did that at my church and up here the main food bank is also in a Community Center associated with a particular church.
I didn't say it, but really, unless you are on the council of every one of these churches, he would have no idea what they did or didn't do that benefited the community.
I made the point that I do find the salaries of the Joel Osteens and other mega-Pastors of mega-churches to be reprehensible. I don't believe that's how Christians are supposed to be.
It didn't matter by now. By now, I was evil up there with Fred Phelps and Hitler because I was a Christian. He was telling me what I believe, putting words in my mouth, and other personal attacks. I had really held back. I refrained from pointing out just how much absolute bullshit he was spewing, and there was plenty. Anyone else I would have jettisoned long before the argument went on this long. His excuse was that there had experienced discrimination for so long by Christians that it made this okay.
And you know what, he exactly proved my point.
He's gone from my friends list, and from what I heard he is whining about it. I don't particularly care. I pointed out that he thought he had a license to be a dick and someone who I do care about picked up on that and I think he thought that was just because of the original person being an atheist. It wasn't. It was because the original person degraded the argument into strawman tactics, moving the goalposts, personal insults, and out and out bullshit when his points were refuted. He was really no different than many Trump supporters I've jettisoned over the last 18 months or so for the same thing.
People should be free to believe or not believe whatever they want to. People should not be discriminated against because they believe or don't believe something. Our community institutions should not be targeted because a group of people don't "like" them, be it a drug rehab facility, AIDS charity, food bank, domestic violence shelter, habitat for humanity, or church.
But, thanks for proving my point on your way out the door.
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